How Broadcasting Pioneer Patricia Smullin Found Her Calling

Today on Your Personal Power Pod, we’re excited to be talking with Broadcasting Pioneer Patricia Smullin, President and Owner of California Oregon Broadcasting, Inc., which is the longest, continuously operated independent broadcast organization in the West.  It was founded by her father in the 30’s, and is based in Medford Oregon. During her career in Television Patsy has been in front of the cameras, an administrator running her company, has received numerous national awards, and currently has a You Tube Channel called Up Close with Patsy Smullin.  Today Patsy shares with us how she accomplished all these things, and the role self-esteem and personal power played in her success.


We want to hear from you, whether it’s your stories about how self-esteem and personal power affect your life, or topics you’d like us to address in future episodes. 

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Thank you for listening to Your Personal Power Pod.  We look forward to hearing from you.

And, until next time, find your power and change your life!

Transcript

00:00:00] Welcome to your personal power pod, a podcast about aligning yourself with the life you want. And here are your hosts, Sandy Abel and Shannon Young.
[00:00:20] Sandy: This is such an exciting day. We are going to spend some time with the amazing Patricia Smullin, who is Patsy to her friends. Patsy is the president and owner of California Oregon Broadcasting Incorporated, which is the longest continuously operated independent broadcast organization in the West. It was founded by her father in the 30s and is based in Medford, Oregon.
[00:00:44] Sandy: And during her career in television, Patsy has been in front of the camera, is an administrator running her company, and currently has a YouTube channel called Up Close with Patsy Smullin. And today, Patsy will share with us how she accomplished all these things and the role self [00:01:00] esteem and personal power played in her success.
[00:01:02] This is a fun day for me because when I worked in television, the Smullin name is synonymous with broadcasting. Patsy's father, William B. Smullen, was known and is known as the father of modern broadcasting. Those are some big shoes to fill. So this is a really cool day. Patsy, thanks so much for joining us.
[00:01:19] My pleasure. We know that you grew up in a fairly sizable family. You are the youngest of five. What was that like? I thought I had the perfect family. No one does, of course. We learn that as we grow older, but yes, I was the youngest of five and had two older brothers and two older sisters. Lots of love, lots of fun, lots of hard work.
[00:01:40] I loved my childhood and it was in Eureka, California. On the ocean and we live in a redwood house in the middle of a block full of redwood. So lots of tree climbing. We could go to the top of the trees in our front yard and stare at the ocean. 
[00:01:54] Sandy: Oh, wow. 
[00:01:56] Lots of good stuff. And of course, radio and TV at that time was [00:02:00] just a huge part of our lives.
[00:02:01] We were at the radio station or at the TV station with my mom and dad all the time. They both worked there. It was fun. We had a good time. 
[00:02:08] Shannon: Was it just expected that you would go into the family business? 
[00:02:12] It's not at all the opposite. At one point, I think I was the only one not in it. I had no intention of going in it.
[00:02:21] After college, I was living in Berkeley, California and attempting to get into, uh, social work. And I had worked summers in cable TV for my dad, which I enjoyed, but I had no intention of broadcasting being a career for me. I figured I was the one in the family that was not suited for it. Wow, isn't that fascinating?
[00:02:42] It is. It is. Now I'm the only one in it. So what happened? Well, it was very specific. I was, as I said, living in Berkeley after college, and I was on my way to visit my close cousins up in Spokane, Washington for a little bit. [00:03:00] Got to Medford and the man that was running the cable system for my father had just lost his office manager and she left it a huff.
[00:03:08] I saw him just as a friend and he said, please help me out for two weeks. I have no one here and you've worked summers in cable TV. You know what goes on in this office. Please just help me out for a little bit. That was 50 years ago.
[00:03:24] Sandy: Time flies. 
[00:03:25] Time flies. Absolutely. I thought, well, I'll just make enough money to get new tires because it was now snowing. The further north I was to drive and I had bald tires and so yeah, that two weeks passed and then decades more after that. Was there a point at which you consciously chose it? Like you said, okay, I've been doing this long enough.
[00:03:44] I'm going to keep working at this. I don't know that I remember that exact moment, but I do remember that when Dell hired me to stay and run the office at the cable company, he never told me that he had asked his boss, my father, if that was okay. [00:04:00] And my father had said, no, my dad felt we had enough. Small and children in the business on the broadcast side, as well as now the cable side.
[00:04:07] And his answer was no. When he offered me the job, I just was really enjoying it and I was running out of money. I said, Yes, and later he told me, my father never did mention it, he told me that he had been told he could not do that, but he wanted to do that, and he was the kind of guy, pretty much did what he wanted in the cable industry, and so there I was.
[00:04:31] Wow, he changed your life. He changed my life. He came back decades later after he retired and said, did I ruin your life? And the answer is what? And the answer was no, I love what I do. 
[00:04:44] Sandy: Oh my goodness, isn't that fascinating. And all your brothers and sisters were in TV and then got out. 
[00:04:50] Yes, my oldest brother decided to go to law school.
[00:04:53] He took that route and my dad was very supportive of that and I think that turned into a great career for [00:05:00] him. My sister Shirley helped out at the station. She became an RN and that was her career. My sister, Carol Ann, graduated from Stanford, went to work for our company, set up a brand new corporate headquarters for central accounting.
[00:05:13] She was terrific. She married an Episcopal priest and she had to move where the church was. So she left and then Don Smullin, my brother, two years older than me, worked in broadcasting in my dad's company for a long time. And then he left and had his own company, which was setting up some satellite systems throughout Europe, putting together transmitter and tower businesses up until years later when Europe started doing that for themselves.
[00:05:40] Sandy: You have a very diverse family and they all started in broadcasting, except you, of course. 
[00:05:46] They did. Yeah. A lot of that was at a very young age cleaning records at the radio station as a kid, or in my case, selling cable TV door to door as a kid. So yeah, it started young. 
[00:05:58] Sandy: Wow, you sold cable TV as a [00:06:00] kid, door to door.
[00:06:00] Sandy: Was that scary? 
[00:06:01] It was hard. I sure found that out. And I, you know, have some very distinct memories of coming home, particularly the first night, carrying fruit and vegetables and Mary Kay products. And, um, I developed this great theory all by myself. That if I bought what the people had to offer, door to door, that they'd buy from me.
[00:06:22] That didn't happen. Oh, dear. So I remember coming home and I thought my father would be very disappointed. And he laughed and said, can I help you with all this stuff?
[00:06:35] Apparently he wasn't surprised. He was totally entertained. I was mortified to learn that my theory did not work. 
[00:06:41] Sandy: But how clever of you. You were really proactive with that. How old were you? 
[00:06:45] Oh, I don't know. I think summer after high school. I quickly learned a whole lot about selling door to door. And those were the days which a lot of people didn't even know existed when cable TV was almost strictly to get a better signal and to bring in a few programs, like [00:07:00] I Love Lucy.
[00:07:00] Very little programming, but it did help technically with cable to get better signals and get them to places that needed them. 
[00:07:08] Sandy: And what did you learn about yourself in that whole process as an 18 year old? 
[00:07:12] A lifetime experience, knowing how difficult selling is, even when it's a great product, taught me great respect, how tough that line of work is.
[00:07:22] Absolutely. And still is selling airtime is not an easy task. Absolutely not at all. And now of course it's more complicated and it's. ever been before. And I remember my father saying once that someday there will be hundreds of channels, just like someday there won't be just Life Magazine and Time Magazine.
[00:07:43] There will be hundreds of publications. And in this case, we're now getting into the thousands. Look at the amount of channels that you can get. There still is only one way to get free TV and that's over the air. I talk to people every day that have no idea what an antenna is and that 
[00:07:58] Sandy: If they 
[00:07:59] can get [00:08:00] one for very little money, and they can watch all the television they want over the air at absolutely no charge.
[00:08:07] So have you always believed in yourself like that? No, not at all. No, I doubt myself every day. I've never gotten over it. Still? Now? Still. Oh, absolutely. Because every day I do something I'm afraid to do. If we want to learn and grow You just have to face stuff and do it. But there, no, there's never a day that I don't do something that I would really rather not be doing.
[00:08:28] Sandy: That is so impressive, Patsy. How do you find the courage? One day at a time. You must have good self esteem. I 
[00:08:33] guess sometimes I do. Often I don't. But I forge ahead anyway, and I do now, of course, have a lot of days behind me to remember, I didn't think I could do it, and I got through it, so I can get through this too.
[00:08:46] Absolutely. You're definitely a groundbreaker. You started in TV in a time when women were not the norm in the industry. How has that been for you? Well, I think I was lucky in a couple of ways. One, I'm a girl, [00:09:00] not a boy. And I had a dad who very much believed from the very early years Females could do anything males could do, and he ran radio stations during the war, when he had no men to be in the radio station.
[00:09:14] So it was all run by women. So he learned young that women could do anything men could do. And so he believed in me. There was nobody I had more respect for than him. So I thought, well, if he believes in me, there has to be something. And that's the absolute truth. And then also sons of dads. We're always the future.
[00:09:33] They were going to run the family business. They were going to take charge and then we'll find a typing job for the little girls. 
[00:09:40] Sandy: Right. Yeah. 
[00:09:40] In my case, no one expected me to be like my dad. Everybody expected my brothers to be like their dad, or they were at least constantly comparing, Oh, you're so like your dad in this.
[00:09:50] So you're so not like your dad in this. Because they're male. Because they were male. 
[00:09:54] Sandy: Yeah. So 
[00:09:55] I never expected to be like my dad. I was nothing like my dad. [00:10:00] Maybe if the soul Owner had been my mother. Maybe that would have been just the same as young men with their dads, but I wasn't asked to be like my dad.
[00:10:08] I wasn't like my dad, didn't care, compare myself to my dad. So I think that part's a lot easier for women than sons. 
[00:10:15] Sandy: So you could just be you in the job. 
[00:10:17] What else was I going to be? Yeah. 
[00:10:19] Sandy: Yeah. Well, a lot of people try to be something they're not. Sounds like you figured out who you are. 
[00:10:24] It happens sometimes that you have to push yourself to be something you're not in order to learn something that you need to learn for your career.
[00:10:31] I do remember early on, this was in the 80s, when a woman came out from New York, a journalist, to interview me because I was The only female broadcast owner, I don't know if it was a country or the state or the whatever. Anyway, she came out from New York doing this article and she said, it's terrible, the position you're in and the way you're treated.
[00:10:50] And I said, well, you know, there are some good things. Sometimes I was at a convention recently and there was a line of like 50 in front of the bathroom at the hotel for men. And [00:11:00] guess what? Only me to walk into the female restroom. Boy, that's 
[00:11:04] Sandy: unusual. That's great. 
[00:11:07] So the fact that there were so few women, once in a while there was a good thing about that.
[00:11:11] And then what was kind of interesting was that we grew and grew and grew as an industry. And there became more and more women in broadcasting. Then started all the consolidations and the mergers and the sales. And now we're back to not that many people. running the industry who are women. There are still a lot more than there once were, but with all the mergers, when you bring together two businesses, one owned and run by a woman, one owned and run by a man, frequently they merge and guess who's the one running the company.
[00:11:43] It's still an issue. We still, fortunately, will work hard to make sure that more and more women are in the industry. 
[00:11:49] Sandy: That's so important. Because women are just as capable as men. Yep. Sometimes more so. So, what was your mother like? Was she a strong, empowered woman? 
[00:11:59] She [00:12:00] was. She hosted and ran and planned a television show for children, both at our stations in California and in Oregon, called Aunt Polly.
[00:12:08] Sometimes it was a birthday show, and sometimes it was just a party. And then when they traveled for broadcast meetings, like one trip they took, which I remember, all of us as children. We thought it was for a month. It was for a week or something like that. We always said they were gone a month, but that was not true.
[00:12:27] But they went to, uh, with the National Association of Broadcasters board to interview heads of countries all over Europe. And she wrote every day to the children of the Aunt Polly show, telling them all about the different countries and meeting the leaders and what she learned. from the kids in those countries.
[00:12:45] That was a wonderful part of the Aunt Polly show. We still have those letters that she wrote every day to the children in Northern California and Southern Oregon. So she was very accomplished in terms of hosting TV and in terms of supporting my dad, but she also was raising [00:13:00] five children and being involved in the community, which is just what Parents did in those days.
[00:13:04] Well, that seems to be a major part of your motivation as well. Affecting the community, being there for the community. Can you tell us a little bit about where your passion for the broadcasting industry lies? Like what's most important to you about what you do? Well, it's not about necessarily the technical side, the engineering side or the television stations themselves or climbing poles and cable TV, but it was using all those things, all the wonderful things about television, the power of it to do good things and the passion.
[00:13:34] It was just in my DNA. It was from my dad. Did very little preaching to us, but boy, did he show us things by example. He and my mother did that every day. They never preached about it. People say, why are you so involved in the community? Well, I don't know any other way to be. And I remember him saying at one point I was in grade school when he said the, the two most powerful things he was aware of were the atom bomb and the power of television.
[00:13:59] And I'm [00:14:00] thinking, what the heck is he talking about? But I still learned that television was. It's very powerful. And if you use it for the right things, which is bringing people together to do good and healthy things for their communities, for their families, for their coworkers, you just have a better life.
[00:14:16] Sandy: That speaks real strongly to the power of role models. And you had two amazing role models. Who it sounds like they taught you, even if you're afraid, you go for it, which means you claim your personal power, even though you're scared and you don't let it stop you. They helped you believe in who you are and the work ethic, but also giving back and quite amazing.
[00:14:38] Sandy: You were fortunate. 
[00:14:39] I was fortunate. And. I still, when I doubt myself, remember that two of the people that I respected most of all both believed in me. And they didn't fake it. They did believe in me. And that really still helps me to realize when I do not feel adequate that they thought I was okay. I must be okay.
[00:14:56] Sandy: Does that still happen for you, Patsy? You still occasionally feel inadequate [00:15:00] or doubt yourself? Every day. Really? 
[00:15:02] Yeah. So what I try to do is every day think about what could I do better today? When you deal with personnel for this many decades, you see yourself get frustrated. You see, I had one of our staff asked me the other day who the Beatles were.
[00:15:19] Well, I want to just go in my office and cry. Oh dear. Because life is changing so much in this country and in this world. I think you have to work super hard on yourself to keep a positive attitude, continue to learn new things that help change you in a positive way. Sometimes life just gets frustrating.
[00:15:43] You finally learn you know something and you're old and people don't know who the Beatles are.
[00:15:50] Life can be a challenge, that's for sure, and I think it is for most of us. You have a really interesting history in that you're not only the woman behind this [00:16:00] powerful company, but you also spend time on camera and you've interviewed some of the most notable personalities over the past decades. I think the first one that comes to mind is Hillary Clinton.
[00:16:12] Tell us a little bit about interviewing these people who have such influence in the world and what you've learned about people in the process. Well, I can tell you how it started. I was in my office complaining to myself one day and my dad walked by and said, what's the matter? And I said, well, Geraldine Ferraro is here in Medford.
[00:16:30] She's at the Holiday Inn and she's running for vice president. She's the first woman to do so. Nobody in the newsroom wants to go interview her. I just heard them all talking and he goes, well, go do it yourself. I said, well, I'm not in the newsroom. That's not my job. And he said, if you want it bad enough, you'll go do it.
[00:16:45] What a good dad. I went to the Holiday Inn and I interviewed her and it was supposed to be five minutes. News stories are so brief. I was there two and a half hours and I came back to the newsroom. They thought I went and [00:17:00] left town or something. So, that was it. To be able to bring to our viewers in Southern Oregon, Northern California this interesting, intelligent woman who was running for this high office and be able to give a opportunity for all these viewers in 12 counties to get to know someone a little bit, not do a 60 minutes thing, but just an opportunity to let somebody say who they are without a Being disruptive or having some particular agenda, but just to let them talk and share who they are as if you just gotten on an airplane, sat down, started chatting with somebody, which isn't so common now with COVID, et cetera, but what it was then you'd get on an airplane and sit down and by the time you landed, you'd know each other better than some of your own friends.
[00:17:48] That's how it began. One of the things I was proud of was to be able to interview three generations of Bushes. Barbara Bush, and then Laura Bush, and then Jenna Bush. [00:18:00] That's been fun. And the fact is, it doesn't matter if you're independent or RD. It's just really educational to get to know some of these people who affect our lives, all our lives.
[00:18:10] Sandy: Well, they are human beings, apart from actually being an RRD and I, with lives and fears and hopes and dreams and all that. And that's where you go, I think. Right. Who are you? Yeah. Who are you? Makes all the difference. 
[00:18:25] Absolutely. One really fun time with Mrs. Bush was that she was very close to other people in Oregon, Mark Hatfield.
[00:18:34] And his wife and John Dellenbach and his wife, they were both Congress people. And the Bushes came into Congress as freshmen in Congress with those two other couples. And they became extremely close. That is how, in fact, I got the interview with Barbara Bush was that Barbara Dellenbach here in Medford on my behalf asked her, she'd be.
[00:18:55] willing. We did this interview, and she was probably the most down to earth person I've ever met. One of the [00:19:00] things that she told me about being in this high office was that she could go to the Smithsonian anytime she wanted, and she could use their jewelry. Fascinating. Yes, I thought so. And she said that was just a really fun perk.
[00:19:13] So when I interviewed Laura Bush, I asked her, I said, do you use the privilege of the Smithsonian like your mother in law did? She said, what are you talking about? I told her, and then at the end of the interview, I asked her what she was going to be doing that afternoon. And she said she was headed for the Smithsonian, nothing about that little extra privilege.
[00:19:32] Sandy: That is a fun story. I love that. 
[00:19:35] That was great. 
[00:19:37] Sandy: Well, and you have connected with a whole lot of fascinating people. You said that you doubt yourself. On our podcast, we've talked a lot about your inner child, and we make the distinction between your inner child and the adult you are now, and it sounds like it's your inner child, the little person you used to be when you were like three or four, who is afraid, the adult you are is very confident and [00:20:00] capable, and you know that, which means you've got great self esteem, Patsy, and you claim your personal power and go for it, and you work with your inner child on that.
[00:20:07] Sandy: Does that sound right, or am I really wrong? 
[00:20:09] Sandy, you're the shrink, whatever you say.
[00:20:14] Sandy: Well, it's just the way you talk about how you're anxious or doubt yourself, but you just jump right in. You're obviously claiming your power and you have enough self esteem to believe you've got what it takes to make whatever you want happen. 
[00:20:28] I've certainly been lucky to have friends and family that believed in me, but as you well know, life is rough and it hands you tough stuff.
[00:20:35] It's just not always easy to handle, but one day at a time, right? 
[00:20:39] Sandy: Always. And like you said, it's what you tell yourself and how you choose to deal with things. 
[00:20:44] Yeah, I think in my case, the hard stuff has enabled me to do the soft stuff that I love. If it weren't for running a business in communications, learning to push ahead, and to do things that maybe I didn't think I could, I wouldn't be able to do [00:21:00] the softer stuff.
[00:21:01] Like interviewing wonderful people all over the country. That's certainly much more me than business. I don't think of myself as a businesswoman. I think of myself as a broadcaster, as a communications professional. That's the fun. So I think the hard part is having to be tougher than you would normally be because you're in business and you have to be.
[00:21:20] Yeah. Can you think of some times that specifically relate to the struggle? What were some of the hard times that you came through and how did you do that? Well, I think anybody who employs people realizes how hard that can be. This isn't social work. Which is also very challenging, but you can take longer to be truly empathetic as a social worker than perhaps in business where you have to follow certain rules.
[00:21:47] Your staff has to follow certain rules. You have to face the facts of everyday work. That's all hard, and you have to make a lot of tough decisions, and you have to tell people, [00:22:00] hopefully, the truth every day, whether they be staff, clients, customers, subscribers, listeners, viewers. You're not always telling people what they want to hear.
[00:22:09] Sometimes it would just be nice to be able to do that. Just tell them what they want to hear. Yeah. Yeah, here's a little one that became a big one. This lady called me one day and she said, you know, I hate this program and it's all the owner's fault. And I know her, she's a bitch and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:22:27] I said, Oh really? And I said, who is the owner? And she said, well, Patsy Smullen, and she doesn't know what she's doing. And I said, well, you know, it's been great talking with you. I am Patsy Smullen. And, um, Stuff like that, where you just think of these people you've never met ever, and you probably never will, but is there a way to become a good communicator with them?
[00:22:45] That's definitely a challenge. And then you start wondering, what did I ever do to hurt this person? 
[00:22:51] Sandy: Well, it's obviously her problem, not yours. I mean, she's got her own issues. What did she say when you said, I am Patsy Smullen? She hung up. [00:23:00] 
[00:23:00] Mortified. 
[00:23:02] Sandy: Oh, well, you know, 
[00:23:05] then also the good news in that is nobody has to get permission to talk to me ever.
[00:23:10] They call in and they ask for the owner or they ask for Patsy. They're put right through. And I have learned in life a ton from having open access. I talked to people I never would have been able to speak with or learn from. And I don't know, Northern California and Southern Oregon definitely share more than they don't share in the way they live and the way they think.
[00:23:28] I think in the geography, it's a pretty incredible region and I love it. 
[00:23:33] Sandy: Yes, it is wonderful. We love it too. What have you learned about yourself through all this? 
[00:23:38] I've learned what I need to do more of, which is instead of spending every day reviewing what I did wrong, trying to take each day and remember what I did right and want to do more of.
[00:23:49] I get in trouble because staff thinks I'm abrupt. That's one thing that did come from my father. So he would just. He had this childish honesty. He would just answer the question you asked. And that's [00:24:00] not very common and sometimes not very acceptable. I have learned that just try to answer the question, which I'm trying to do with you, that you are asked if it isn't liked, that's okay.
[00:24:10] Absolutely. You got to be honest. Tell the truth. Yes. When I was working for a competing station a couple of decades ago, which we loved, which we loved. Well, absolutely, and that competition was and is important. KOBI was seen as its very own entity in a world full of conglomerates. KOBI was kind of, not the black sheep, but the independent station that made its own decisions that were different from the rest of the industry.
[00:24:36] And that, uh, can directly be tied to you and your gut and following your instincts and it has paid off for you because you're still running this independently operated broadcast organization. How did you get to a point where you were able to trust that the decisions you were making, even though they were so very different from the rest of the industry, were the right ones?
[00:24:57] I still question that every single [00:25:00] day. One of the biggest challenges for us has always been that we don't have the income that a TV station in New York or LA or Seattle or Portland have, not even close, but our expenses are very similar. The equipment we buy is the same amount or more money because we're not buying it in great amounts.
[00:25:19] And so it's much harder, and there are lots of days where you think this just is not for somebody who's just looking at getting rich, that's for sure. And again, just one day at a time. Most of the other general managers I know in the many, many large corporations spend their entire day on the phone, in conference calls with corporate, doing none of the things that our managers get to do every day.
[00:25:42] Which is, again, engaging with the community. They think they have it rough by having three meetings a week for an hour at that. They do because you just forget that that's why we're lucky enough to have people here who did previously work for big corporations and [00:26:00] get to see what a difference it is and how fun it is.
[00:26:02] Granted, you don't have the income, you can't spoil them as much, but you have other things that create a lot of sunshine, which is working together, which is working in the community during the day, which is meeting people right and left, we have fabulous debates from the Congressional debates to local county commissioner debates.
[00:26:22] We do them as well as any TV station in America, but we have to work a lot harder and everybody has to do a lot more. So, you know, there's the good and the bad, but we get to do what we want to do. 
[00:26:33] Sandy: That is great. And I love that you are all about the people, Patti, that is. so rare in large corporations and your folks are very fortunate to have you running the show.
[00:26:42] Sandy: Oh, thank you. Do you have any advice or suggestions for our listeners about personal power, self esteem? What would you like to leave everybody with? 
[00:26:50] I'd say give everybody a chance, whether you're listening through all the social media, through all the television opportunities, radio [00:27:00] opportunities, what we're doing right graciously are taking your time to do and try to take in everything you're doing.
[00:27:06] But try to make sure you're listening to the truth. 
[00:27:09] Sandy: Beautiful. Is there anything else you want to say to our listeners before we sign off? 
[00:27:14] Good luck getting through this next election phase for America. Yes. Try hard to listen to people who don't agree with you. Keep your cool. Learn from them. I think it's a huge mistake what many of us do with just watching the news that they agree with or just.
[00:27:35] talking to the people they agree with. A lot of families are actually splitting up over this. So I just encourage everybody to try to be comfortable with their own beliefs without upsetting everybody else that you don't agree with. So you can keep listening to those people because everybody comes from somewhere and there are reasons for how they feel.
[00:27:55] Hang in there through the election and, you know, as Lester Holt says every night on [00:28:00] NBC new, take care of yourselves. 
[00:28:02] Sandy: Yes, I love that sign off. That is beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Patsy. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you for asking. We really appreciate you sharing your time with us and our listeners.
[00:28:12] Sandy: Maybe we can do it again sometime. 
[00:28:15] That would be fun. Let's see what happens here from now. Okay. 
[00:28:18] Sandy: Yes. That'll be very interesting. Yes. 
[00:28:21] Thank you, Sandy, and thank you, Shannon, a lot. Thank you. We've been talking with Patricia Smullin, the president and owner of California Oregon Broadcasting Incorporated, which is the longest continuously operated independent broadcast organization in the West, founded by her father, William Smullin, in the 30s.
[00:28:39] Thanks, Patsy. Thank you. Bye-Bye. And we wanna hear from you. Tell us your thoughts about today's podcast. Tell us your stories about self-esteem, and personal power. Tell us about the topics you want us to address in future episodes. If you feel like doing so, please review our podcast and you can do that wherever you stream.
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